One of things about the U.N.'s Human Rights Commission in Geneva is that it certainly contains, shall we say, a statistically significant number of human rights offenders: many of them unlikely to rush to ratify the ICC. Even the worst of enemies, like Iran and Iraq, tend to team up there. It must embarrass your office. Can anything be done about that?

It is true that some countries with poor human rights records do try to get onto the commission, to thwart its protection mission. But I've emphasized that it's vital that there be a strong protection role. I also strongly suggested to the commission with both my opening and closing speech in Geneva that membership should mean something to members. It should be open to all members because that's the U.N. way, but becoming a member of the Human Rights Commission should mean a commitment to put the country in a better shape in ratifying and implementing instruments.

You were a head of state yourself. Has that made it easier to bust the bureaucracy and get things done with countries?

I think I was always clear that I came into this position to do a job, not try to keep a job. I got very wise advice from a friend of mine when I started -- "Mary, remember, if you get too popular in that job, it means that you're not doing a good job." So I didn't actively seek to be unpopular, but I knew that to do the job well and bring out what is really the culture of human rights, you have to stand up to bullies, you've got to be prepared to criticize both developed and developing countries. When I took issue recently with Australia over their harsh detention policy for asylum seekers, they were outraged -- "We're a democratic country, we don't need you here" -- as if international standards only applied to developing countries. There is that mentality. Whereas if you believe as I do in the integrity of human rights, then they must be applied without fear or favor. And if that's my legacy, I'm happy about that, that can resonate on, and that's very encouraging for those who work on the coalface of human rights and risk their lives. The most I risked is being criticized in press or parliaments.

Do you think your successor will have the same flexibility and force?

I hope for as smooth a transition as possible, to be as helpful as possible and then to clear the field for my successor, which is very important ... I think there'll be a lot of encouragement from the international human rights community, and from my own office. It took quite a lot of building up, but I now lead a great team of very dedicated people and that's the way they want it. And that's the way the rapporteurs and the human rights NGOs want it, so there will be a lot of encouragement.

Not long after you took office and I spoke to you, you referred to the "terrible bureaucracy" of the U.N. Have you mellowed?

I wouldn't alter a word of it. There are enormous frustrations with working in the U.N. system, not least that the office of high commissioner does not have control over its own financial position, its own personnel. There are so many bureaucratic ways ... a lot of mini managing, which isn't always well intentioned, but it's crucial to have a strong human rights voice in the U.N. in the office of the commissioner. But even so, one of things I've been very happy with is to see the fruits of this mainstreaming in the wider U.N. system, into the executive committees, into peacekeeping, development, into the work of country teams. They now focus more and more on a rights-based approach to development and poverty reduction.

We have achieved at an initial stage the mandate of mainstreaming, and now it needs to be brought to a deeper stage with the U.N.'s millennium goals for which the office is preparing human rights guidelines. It will be interesting to see if we can make this part of a U.N. that is value-led with a strong human rights input.

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