Unlike many Americans, you've met Iraqis and spent a long time there. For many, there is no face to this conflict except that of Saddam Hussein. Has knowing and meeting Iraqis shaped your position?

I've been with the highest level of Iraqi government [personnel] during my seven years. When people talk about the Baath Party, I know what this means. These are human beings. There are different power bases -- the moderates, the conservatives, the liberals. When people talk about Iraqi intelligence, I have met everyone from the director on down -- these are human beings. When people talk about the Amn El-Ammn, the gestapo of Iraq, I've met everyone from the their deputy director on down. I've been in their prisons, I've seen the horrors of them, but I've also seen that these are human beings. I've been in every special Republican Guard battalion. I've been in every Republican Guard headquarters; I've been in almost every heavy army division; I've been in the basic training camps; in factories. I've been up and down and all around Iraq. Iraq is a nation-state. I know its imperfections and realities. I had three assassination attempts on my life so I know what [Saddam's] capable of. And I have inspected the documents of [the directorate] for political assassinations. I've been to the children's prison at Amn El-Ammn headquarters in downtown Baghdad. It was horrific; these are kids in jail under horrible conditions, sweltering because of the political crimes of their parents. Dad speaks out against Saddam, Mom goes to the women's prison; the kids go to the children's prison. And do you know what they do to those kids? I don't even want to get to that.

It sounds pretty horrible -- good reasons to push for a regime change.

I know the good, the bad and the ugly of Iraq. The idea of diplomatic engagement is not naive. I've been lied to by these guys; I know how bad they are, but I also know that you could do business with them. This isn't a black-and-white comic book; this is reality. I can enter into an agreement with Iraqi officials, a life and death agreement that they will all adhere to. I know you can trust Iraqis under certain circumstances. They want a future. They want to live. And not just the average citizen; these are senior government officials. They have lives too. They have families, hopes and dreams for their children. We paint these guys as comic book characters. They are not -- they are complex characters. With all the good, the frailties and imperfections that come with this. We do a gross disservice to them, to the world, to the American people by portraying Iraq in vague, inaccurate ways.

How about the moral argument in support of toppling oppressive regimes?

I just cannot accept the argument that we have to intervene to remove Saddam Hussein on moral grounds. To eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs, and linking this elimination with economic sanctions -- around 1.5 million Iraqis have died. We have killed almost six times as many Iraqis trying to eliminate weapons of mass destruction programs, than the weapons of mass destruction have killed in the entire 20th century. That's a moral issue to me. We have to understand that if we wanted to act on moral grounds, we should have acted decisively in 1991. But by dragging this on for more than 10 years and making the Iraqi people pay the price, we lost the moral high ground. We have done so much wrong in the past decade that we missed our opportunity. It's time to move on. If Saddam was rounding up and butchering 200,000 people, maybe. If Saddam was Milosevic carrying out active genocide, maybe. But that's not the case.

Yet there are human rights activists and some policy officials who believe that Saddam's past deeds are enough to indict him for genocide.

Saddam Hussein had a problem with the Kurds along the Iranian border -- active involvement of Iranians threatening the dam providing hydroelectric power to Baghdad, threatening the oil field in the north. Saddam created a depopulated zone. He did it with extreme brutality. I'm not defending it; there is a big difference between that and genocide. The Kurds are an active part, 23 percent of the Iraqi population. There has not been a genocide against the Kurdish population in Iraq. There has been extreme brutality on the part of the regime in controlling the Kurdish problem. Even prior to 1991, Kurds had greater autonomy in Iraq than they have enjoyed anywhere else. This is never talked about.

There is too much mythology that has gone into the idea of Saddam. He's a horrible man and has done horrible things. But he's also done a lot of good things for Iraq. Iraq was brought from the Third World status in the 1960s to one of the most modern advanced states in the Middle East in 1990. Saddam brought education, medicine and suffrage to women in Iraq; [Iraqi women] can vote, go to work, get an education. This isn't bad stuff. Saddam Hussein is a much more complicated issue than people like to admit. It's not black and white and he's not a cartoon character.

You've seen the ugliness from inside. You've become jaded by your experiences in Washington. Where do you go from here? Have you thought of running for office?

People have made very attractive offers. But I am not a politician. I am not saying, never. But politics is not attractive to me. I've seen Washington, D.C., and I don't like it. I am afraid of what that process would do to me as a person and what it would do to my family. There are other ways you can serve. I've served in the military and I am doing a heck of a job for my country right now by adhering to my standards and my code of honor, to the concept of integrity, and by not being afraid to speak out on issues I have substantial knowledge of. I think I am serving my country the best I can at this point in time. I also joined the volunteer fire department in my community.

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