But is he a racist? I used to think he was too, you know, on the planet Mars to be a racist racist. But now I don't know. He's like a sponge. He accepts. You can say anything to David Icke and he will accept it and put it into his ideology. I tried it out once. Icke kept saying that Ted Heath, who was once the prime minister of Britain, was a lizard. I said to Icke, "Did you realize that an anagram of Ted Heath is 'the death'?" And he used it. It became part of his spiel.

Yeah, but in the end his followers take what they want from his philosophy. Maybe it doesn't matter what's going on in David Icke's mind. It's how other people take him. If people want to take "lizard" as a code word for Jew, it's dangerous. If people think he's just talking about lizards, then it's not dangerous.

Where does he get that whole lizard thing from anyway? Did he make it up?

I think he made it up. Though there's that movie, "V," which is all about how the secret rulers of the world are lizards. You see, David would say that maybe "V" was actually made by a whistleblower inside Hollywood who was getting the message out that lizards actually rule the world. He watches Hollywood movies for clues to the truth.

Who are some of the people he thinks are actually lizards?

A very strange assortment of people. Like Kris Kristofferson. I don't know why he thinks Kris Kristofferson is a lizard. "Me and Bobby McGee" is my favorite song and it was not written by a lizard. But when you say to David Icke, "How do you know these people are lizards?" He says, "Well, I did his genealogy." But why would he ever possibly think to ever check out Kris Kristofferson's lizard genealogy in the first place? I asked him, "Well, have you ever done the genealogy of Dennis Healey, a founding member of the Bilderberg Group? And he said, "No, I haven't done it." So how come David Icke -- who believes the Bilderberg Group rules the world -- hasn't done the genealogies of the founders of the Bilderberg Group, but he has done Kris Kristofferson's genealogy?

Let's talk about your time with the Klan. Perhaps the most shocking moment in that whole episode comes when you actually put on the robe and hood. Yet you don't really say very much about how it felt to be a Jew wearing a Klan get-up. All you say is that you're going to feel horribly guilty when Pat, the Klansman who gives you the robe, finds out you're actually Jewish.

Well, that was my actual immediate response. It surprised me, at the time, to be thinking that. So I put it in. But the other thing I was thinking, which maybe I should have put in as well, was -- well, as a kid, I definitely had nightmares about the Klan. The iconography of the robe and the cross burning was etched into my brain. So it was demystifying to put the robe on, and that was good.

It just felt like, say, putting on a bathrobe?

Yeah.

Really? It wasn't strange or scary?

No, it just felt ridiculous. It was clownish, and I found that clownish-ness to be demystifying.

So you weren't really afraid at all while you were spending time with Thom Robb and the Klansmen?

Well, I had nightmares when I was doing the Klan story all the time. I had a recurring nightmare of basically being exposed as a Jew inside the Klan compound.

What about when you visited the Aryan Nations camp in Idaho? It seems as though you were in grave danger. The neo-Nazis surrounded you and were threatening to kill you.

That was a big mistake. They didn't invite me. I didn't even tell them I was coming. I just showed up. I kind of figured if I just jumped out of the car and said, "Hi! I'm a friend of Randy Weaver's!" they would welcome me and it would all be OK. But it wasn't. Obviously it wasn't. I mean, I passed all the "No Jews" signs going up the drive. It would've been my own stupid fault if something had happened. Luckily, that guy got involved to alleviate the tension. I think he was an undercover fed. There are so many undercover feds in that world.

It would've looked really terrible if they killed a visiting British journalist.

But the thing is, they had no reason not to. You know Thom Robb and Omar Bakri and the Bilderberg Group obviously have good reasons not to harm me. But Aryan Nations actually had no reason whatsoever. They're just completely out there. They've got nothing to prove. They do kill people. Plus, they were about to be bulldozed into extinction, you know, because they were going through this court case with Morris Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center. Three or four months after my visit to Aryan Nations it got bulldozed into the ground. They had absolutely nothing to lose. That was a dumb mistake.

Were you nervous before you went to the Aryan Nations camp?

Yeah, really nervous. I'm not what you'd call a fearless type of person.

How did you get up the nerve to do it?

I just kind of felt like I had to. It was the same as infiltrating the Bohemian Grove. That was, again, the last thing in the world I wanted to do. They weren't going to kill me and throw me into the belly of the owl. But they might have me deported from America or have me spend the night in jail. I didn't really feel like doing that either. Without sounding too pretentious, I was sort of a slave to the narrative. When the narrative cracks in, I have to go where it takes me. I had to go to the Bohemian Grove. It was the obvious end to the book.

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