It must have been easy for his political opponents to attack him, even though it appears Lincoln hewed closely to the spirit of the First Amendment's establishment clause against state-sponsored religion.

He honored all religions. When people said he was an enemy of religion, he became very angry. He said that wasn't true. He just did not discriminate. He was the first president to appoint religious chaplains in the military, for example. He was especially good to Jewish chaplains. A lot of people think Abraham Lincoln was religious because he spent so much time quoting the Bible. And yes, it was politically fashionable to quote the Bible. But when you asked him about his being religious, he told you the truth. He belonged to no specific religious group.

Another current debate is over the state of civil liberties post-9/11. We frequently hear the argument that some suspension of rights is justified because we're at war and even Lincoln did it.

He himself, as we know, suspended the writ of habeas corpus and closed down newspapers, violating the Constitution in many ways. I think Lincoln would have said, "Look, yes, I did it. I was criticized for it. I made it clear that I believed I had no real practical choice, because what was at stake was the entire American experiment. If I had not done it, I believe, I might have lost the American experiment. It would have disintegrated. And the American experiment is so important not just to the people of the Untied States but to the whole world." He would have said to Bush, "I know Roosevelt did it. I know I did it. But you had less excuse, if you will, for doing it."

And do you believe that?

No. My personal opinion is that they were both wrong. But there is a kind of tolerance for disregard of the Constitution, or abuse of the Constitution, in times of war or crisis. Leaders get seized by a kind of pragmatism. And the Supreme Court tends to go along. They say, "Well, we don't want to do anything in the middle of the war. We'll give him -- and it's always been a 'him' -- a little leeway." But I think democracy was mature enough in Lincoln's time to do without the suspensions [of civil liberties].

Do you believe Lincoln would be popular today if he were alive? Could he thrive in our television and sound-bite culture?

Lincoln in my opinion was probably the wisest and most intelligent of our presidents, and certainly the most extraordinary articulator of broad, deep, philosophical political policy in our history. I don't think anyone was close to him. Not John Kennedy. Not Thomas Jefferson. But I don't think Lincoln on television, where everything is in sound bites, would do very well. His strengths were rationale, intelligence and analysis. Just read the Lincoln-Douglas debates.

So would Lincoln have been successful in today's culture? He didn't have much charisma.

Yes, charisma is probably more important now than in Lincoln's time -- which was good for Lincoln. He was described as a baboon. A child told him to grow a beard to cover his face. People said they could hear his voice from a great distance when he gave a speech, but it wasn't pleasant. He had huge feet. His clothes never seemed to fit. But people who got to know him personally liked him. Most of the country never met him in person, so they judged him by his words and his deeds.

Harold Holzer has a great book, "Lincoln at Cooper Union," about the speech he gave [in New York as a presidential candidate] in 1860. It was a brilliant analysis of law, the Constitution, slavery and the history and politics of slavery. Can you imagine Bush or John Kerry getting away with an hour and a half speech, and people actually reading it? People who had never seen Lincoln before thought he looked ridiculous coming into Cooper Union. But they left there thinking he was a genius. He wouldn't get the chance to dazzle people that way today: His "image," especially on television, would be more important than his intelligence and oratorical ability, and that would put him at a great disadvantage.

What do you think when people say John Kerry's not charismatic?

He is when you get to know him.

That's what you said about Lincoln. But as we've discussed, Lincoln didn't have to contend with television.

I think John Kerry has to be allowed to make better contact with people, and I think he will from the convention on. You have to get to know the real John Kerry, and some people don't find it easy to share themselves emotionally with people. I want to see a John Kerry who will bring a tear to someone's eye, and get you to laugh, and chill you by reminding you of what happens in a war. I think he has this dimension. I think he hasn't expressed it yet. Right now, this is Bush against Bush, and Bush is losing. But Bush will not lose the presidency unless Kerry adds to that and presents an alternative. I do think John Kerry will show, as he has in the past, that he is a powerful "finisher" and will win going away.

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