Does it surprise you that this issue still has such resonance for people today?

Well, I am surprised that this White House, staffed by draft dodgers or at least war dodgers, is making this into such an issue. This goes beyond chutzpah, it's frankly obscene.

It reminds me of John Wayne. I was one of many young men in America recruited into the Marines by John Wayne. I saw him in "The Sands of Iwo Jima." And later, when I was a Marine and I was on liberty from the 6th Fleet in Rome, I saw him in a restaurant and sent a bottle of wine to his table with my compliments and telling him what a marvelous hero he was to all Marines. And I went over and shook hands with him.

Later I learned that he had escaped military duty in World War II. He let it be known that he had a trick knee, which didn't prevent him from working in cowboy movies and whatnot -- he said he had a football knee or something. That was not true. John Wayne stayed out of the war that Jimmy Stewart and other movie stars flew combat missions in and fought in. He stayed out of it by letting Republic Studios make the plea that he was essential to the war effort as an actor.

So OK, that's all right, I suppose. It's our problem if we regard John Wayne as a hero because of his movies. But then, in Vietnam, he had the audacity to call people who resisted the war, and risked jail, "yellow-bellies" and "commie scum" and "traitors" -- phrases like that. And that -- that -- was unforgivable, I thought.

It's an inexact analogy, but these attacks on Kerry today bring to mind John Wayne and his hypocrisy.

I mean, to call this guy, Kerry, a traitor, of all people! Here is a guy who actually goes over there and serves to the hilt -- and his men testify to his heroism and how he saved their lives in a number of cases. And he goes over and he is a war hero. And then he comes home and acts on what he has learned, to tell the truth about what he has learned, to try to save other lives. He did more to save lives at home than he ever had a chance to do when he was in arms in Vietnam.

Compare someone like Kerry to these high government officials from the Vietnam era, these secret doves like McNamara and Clark Clifford and Hubert Humphrey. Not one of them shared their real views, or their warnings, with the American public or Congress. None of them jeopardized their relationship with the president, none of them jeopardized their careers, their security clearances, their ability to come back in future administrations. None of them broke with the policy that they themselves thought was disastrous. None of them took steps to save any lives.

In contrast to that, these veterans like Kerry used their authority -- not the authority of high government clearances or Cabinet rank -- but the authority of having been shot at and suffered wounds in many cases for what they had been led to believe was in the interest of their country. These people came back and said, "We were misled, we were mistaken in what we did." They did not defend what they did in Vietnam, and as they told the public, much of what they did in Vietnam was very ugly. They saw crimes and they committed crimes -- war crimes. And these veterans, people like Kerry, came back and spoke the truth and did what they could to end the war. Which McNamara did not do -- and which none of these high government officials did.

Now McNamara is in a somewhat different category. Because I believe that at least he, unlike the others, was in a position to keep the country from greatly expanding the war -- which I believe would've cost even more loss of life and still no victory. The right wing says, "He kept us from winning." I don't think they know what they're talking about. So it may be that he did in fact save a lot of lives, even as he was pursuing a policy that cost a lot of lives. I'll be specific here. In his last year in office, 1967, I believe McNamara did act very creditably as an insider, to keep us from expanding the war into a possible war with China, by going into North Vietnam much more heavily.

But when he left office, the war had seven more years to go. He left in 1968, the war continued until 1975. And there were five more years of American ground combat left. Most of the bombs fell after he left, most of the Americans and Vietnamese died after he left. And he was totally silent. And he has no good excuse for that. He did not save any lives after he left office by telling us the truths about the war that he could have.

The question after any scarring episode in history like Vietnam is, "What did you do in the war, daddy?" That must be applied here. If you did not come to believe that the war was false, a moral catastrophe, then it was not a credit to your wisdom or character or maturity. But if you did realize it, like most Americans, the next test is, "Then what did you do upon realizing that?"

And I will say that certainly the most creditable role for a citizen at that point is to do everything possible to stop it. And the highest standard was set by the people who went to prison for nonviolent draft resistance. And the other highest standard was set by the vets, who came home and put themselves on the line by speaking out and marching against the war. Vets like John Kerry set a standard for the whole country.

I think this is Kerry's strongest qualification to be a leader of this country.

In January, McNamara spoke out against the war in Iraq for the first time, telling the Toronto Globe and Mail the war is "morally wrong, politically wrong, economically wrong." But when he was pressed to repeat his criticisms on stage in Berkeley this month, he refused, suggesting that it was improper for a former high government official to publicly attack U.S. policy and that it could cost lives in Iraq. You were in the audience that night -- what was your reaction?

Well, clearly we differ. I could not disagree more. To say that someone who had inside knowledge and government experience should not share that with the public, at a time when we're facing prolongation of a wrongful war, is just plain wrong.

I'll say this, McNamara is consistent. He refused to act from his inside knowledge and authority and experience to end the Vietnam War, and he's now refusing for the same reason to end the Iraq war. And he's consistent -- he was wrong then and he's wrong now.

I don't know what he actually learned from Vietnam -- I genuinely don't know, he might have learned something. He did clearly learn from the Cuban missile crisis, he did learn the risks of nuclear war can arise even with relatively rational men in power. That's an incredibly important message he's trying to convey, and I give him credit for that.

But McNamara has not learned that he could be far more effective as an outside critic of U.S. policy. After he got out of government, he could have been far more effective than he was inside, by speaking out and saving lives. And he could save lives right now, in Iraq. He said in Berkeley that he did not want to risk American lives in Iraq by speaking out about the war. But it's difficult to figure out how he would be endangering lives by doing that.

It's not difficult to know exactly what the cost of his silence was during the Vietnam War. His failure to speak out -- and mine -- during those early years, 1964, '65, '66 and in his later years, did not just endanger troops, it cost the lives of 58,000 Americans and millions of Vietnamese. And it's amazing that he hasn't learned that.

His admonition to the Berkeley audience to apply the lessons of Vietnam and be active and so forth is fine, as words. But it's pretty hollow because he's setting an example by refusing to inform that public in a way where they could be effective in their resistance.

I do respect a lot of parts of his career, actually, more than most people. But that is not a behavior pattern of his that I do respect.

Do you think, as you watch the war unfold in Iraq, that Bush learned any important lessons from Vietnam?

Have we learned the lessons? That's the real question. I think the lesson that the American people should take from Vietnam is that people in Bush's position, in government leadership, lie all the time. And deceive themselves that what is good for them and their administration is good for the country. That's the corruption of power, and the question is what are we going to do about it?

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