In both the Vietnam Era and in the protests against Reagan's Central America policy, liberal religious leaders had a huge role in opposition movements. Why haven't we seen that presence in recent years and recent political protests?

Well, I think there's been a mood in religious life, particularly in mainstream Christian congregations, that has been more focused on personal religion, personal growth, personal adjustment, and community service ... all of which has its place.

But (another) area asks: What do the systems of life do to us? Where is public justice? What are the priorities of our society? That area hasn't galvanized the religious community's focus.

We've got to get out of a religion that's self-centered and self-serving.

How is your view of Christianity different from that practiced and preached by George W. Bush or others who consider themselves religious conservatives?

Well, I'm not part of the evangelical right. I believe that God's spirit is inclusive, not exclusive. I believe that the public marketplace -- the place where ideas are exchanged and decisions are made -- is not to be monopolized by one religious point of view.

I believe that we are an open country with religious and even non-religious diversity, and that's a good thing, a democratic thing and very American.

And then I believe part of the appeal of the evangelical religion is for offering certainty, not faith. Certainty about what's doctrinally correct. I think one of the dangers of religion is to believe we've got God all buttoned down. And I believe just the opposite. I believe in the freedom and mystery of God that doesn't allow us to be certain but allows us to be loving.

To put it in street talk, I look more to how people live than what they say they believe.

On the death penalty, in your view, can a Christian favor the death penalty for Saddam? Or, say, for a mentally retarded Texas man who killed someone?

I think it's pretty appalling without trial and without public hearing to begin by advocating the death penalty (for Saddam). I find that appalling. I find that difficult to reconcile with Christian spirit.

I have problems with the death penalty. Lots of Christians don't -- I'm one who does. I think taking life individually is criminal, and when we do it collectively, it has the same moral meaning.

You've gotten criticism (in a recent Newsday column by author and Rutgers sociology professor Arlene Stein) that you're staying away from issues such as abortion and gay marriage in order to appeal to religious moderates.

We're not staying away from those issues. What we're saying is: We've got differences on those issues in the religious community, and we're not going to be divided because our major concern right now is regime change.

On those issues, we would be strongly in favor of a level playing field, so we would support all human and civil rights for all Americans, including gay and lesbian people. And I would assume, personally, that includes the right to make choices about marriage.

Do you think Democrats are more hesitant to talk about God than Republicans, and if so, why?

I think that Democratic candidates have been so committed to the separation of church and state, and wanting to avoid religious controversy, that they have stayed away from religious talk. That's one of the points.

The other is that Democrats with progressive and liberal views have been attacked by the religious right. There's no doubt Democrats have to learn how to talk about their convictions in ways that resonate with the progressive religious communities.

A recent opinion piece in the Washington Post said Democrats shouldn't even try to win Southern states in the next presidential election because the numbers are so bad. Do you agree?

I just think it's a little bit unknown. I grew up in the South, and when those Bible-believing Southerners start thinking about a faith-based social conscience, you just can't tell how they're going to vote. When they look at the issue of the war and they try and make that square with what's fair and right with the world, you can't predict how they're going to vote.

Also, you've got the black vote. They're strongly religious, and [their voting is] going to be guided by a progressive religious point of view. There's some places where [we believe] black communities in the South hold the swing votes. Mississippi, Louisiana, South Carolina. ...

At the center of black religion is a passion for social justice. At the center of the religious right, the passion is for personal piety. And those are very, very different agendas.

How are you going to answer potential criticism that your group may be blurring the separation of church and state?

I think the religious heritage has always affirmed a prophetic role for religious leaders and so I make no apologies about that. It's calling people to action, and it's calling around basic religious values. As long as we've got free speech, free press and free religious institutions, then we're going to make it. And one of the problems under this administration, in the Justice Department, for instance, is that it is infringing on those freedoms, infringing on human rights. There's a big decision here for America (in the next election).

Why do Christian leaders appear to have such a strong influence over their congregations? What does this say about their congregations?

Religious leaders are still looked to as being leaders with integrity -- [whether they are] moderate, progressive, evangelical. It's important for religious leaders to address our public, democratic decisions. And they will be listened to.

What we need is public leadership that's informed by what I call a faith-based social conscience. I want the values that have flowed for generations through American life to be embraced and continue to a part of our life together.

How are you going to get your message out?

It's not like we're going to have to teach people how to be progressive. Religious people are progressive. All we've got to do is give handles of expression.

There are more religious congregations than any other institution in American life, except bars. And we're saying this country belongs to those kind of people, and by golly, we're going to be heard in terms of its leadership and its direction.

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