Why did the Bush administration ultimately carry out its Iraq policy the way it did? Do you subscribe to any of the more cynical views commonly voiced by the left, for example that the war was simply a big oil grab?

I think it reflects a rather wholesale disregard for international institutions, for a multilateral framework in which to conduct U.S. foreign policy. I don't think it's only about oil. That may be part of it, but fundamentally it's about American power. The United States has articulated in the National Defense Strategy (PDF file) -- with its precursor being the Project for a New American Century (PDF file) -- the desire to make sure American military power is preeminent, and will stay that way 100, 200 and 500 years from now. That will be accomplished by asserting American unilateral military power -- and economic power, though the two in some measure go hand in hand -- wherever it's needed around the globe.

Paradoxically, I think history gives us good reason to think this is exactly the wrong strategy to pursue if the goal is to prolong American power, and the values for which America presumably stands.

At the latest antiwar demonstrations in Washington and San Francisco on Oct. 25, which were largely organized by the radical group International ANSWER, protesters used slogans such as "End the imperialist occupation," and "Bring the troops home now." Do you think these are tenable positions, or is this the type of insular politics you criticize in your book?

I think you need to articulate the position you're asking me about a little more clearly than just a slogan.

Well, what happens if we do pull the troops out of Iraq now?

Look, this may be frustrating, but Amnesty International doesn't take a position on pulling the troops out or keeping them in. What we do believe is that there has to be a rebuilding of the judicial infrastructure in Iraq, and much of the work we're doing there is designed to educate and train, and to rebuild a system that will allow the people who had crimes committed against them and their families to seek redress -- and ultimately allow there to be a functioning system of justice when the troops are withdrawn. Amnesty has not called for the withdrawal of troops. And we certainly didn't call for them to be put there in the first place.

Our job, and the job of the human rights world, is not to make military decisions of one sort or another. It's to say, once we're in there, "Here are the standards that must be met by the occupying troops, and here are the kind of government institutions that must be built. And if you're not doing that adequately, whether it's in Afghanistan or Iraq, then you're not doing your job."

But isn't that somewhat of a contradiction of your view that human rights advocates need to articulate a constructive strategy for both battling terrorism and defending human rights, including whatever the necessary military tools? You can't establish a functioning judicial system in Iraq if you don't establish security first.

Of course not. All I can tell you is that Amnesty has not called for the withdrawal of troops. You're absolutely right that security needs to be established. Human rights can't function in a situation of chaos and anarchy. We believe that. And that will involve, under the current circumstances, a military presence for some period of time. In fact, in Afghanistan we've called for that military presence to be extended beyond Kabul so that security can be established across the country, precisely so that a new judicial system, and a larger system with respect for human rights, can be established.

Michael Ignatieff, director of the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy, supported the Iraq war on human rights grounds. Recently he said in the New York Times, "What always drove me crazy about the [war] opposition was that it was never about Iraq. It was a referendum on American power." Shouldn't Amnesty in fact take a position on the use of military power if its primary goal is ending the human rights abuses of regimes such as Saddam's?

In the long run it may not be wise of Amnesty International to have a policy that it takes no position on military intervention. Certainly I have argued within Amnesty that in the face of genocide, such as in Rwanda, the organization is utterly remiss not to take a position in favor of military intervention.

Again, for better or worse, Amnesty did not take a position on military intervention in Iraq, and doesn't take one now regarding the withdrawal of the troops -- though we certainly aren't calling for their withdrawal. There does indeed need to be basic security before any support for human rights can be established.

Recently several Democratic U.S. senators spoke out in favor of the PATRIOT Act. According to the Washington Post, Joseph Biden, D-Del., said popular criticism of the legislation has been "ill-informed and overblown," and even Russ Feingold, D-Wis. -- the only U.S. senator who actually voted against the legislation -- said he supports "90 percent" of its provisions, and that the rest are "fixable." What's your view of PATRIOT? Can we stop terrorism without it?

There's little evidence at this point that the PATRIOT Act is a critical factor in defending the country against terrorism. The Justice Department has acknowledged that they have used it exceedingly sparingly, and that when it has been used, it's been against non-terrorist criminal elements. This isn't to say that there aren't parts of it which are reputable, about which civil libertarians and human rights advocates should have no complaints.

It's clear that the major element of the PATRIOT Act that's drawn criticism is its short-circuiting of the traditional process of seeking subpoenas from an independent court for retrieving personal information. I've seen no evidence, from Feingold or anyone else, that sidestepping the traditional process of going to court -- where you have to show at least some degree of evidence as to why such information is relevant to the pursuit of a suspect -- is a necessary provision. The Justice Department itself, by saying it has rarely used the provision, appears to be acknowledging it isn't necessary.

That knocks out a fundamental argument in favor of PATRIOT in the first place: You have to be able to prove that some derogation of traditional rights is not only effective, but necessary to pursuing the protection of security -- that without the suspension of these rights, the public's safety will be considerably jeopardized. Thus far I haven't seen such evidence.

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