You've used the term "colonial presence" for what we're going to be after this war, and compared the U.S. to the British and the Ottoman empires in that respect. Are you being a little hyperbolic there? I mean, it's not really a colonial presence, we're not going to stay there.

Well, I certainly hope we're not going to stay there. I hope we'll get out as rapidly as is feasible. But we also have to recognize that it may take some time there before we can expect a democracy and a stable environment. I mean, we're moving into what has historically been a Middle Eastern Yugoslavia, racked by internal tension and fractious relations welded together in a state by the iron grip of Saddam Hussein. With that off, there's no telling what the fractionating forces will seek.

So the idea that you can sort of come in there quickly and say, "OK, you got your liberty, here it is, don't starve, be good," and leave is stretching. In addition to all the other problems, you're dealing with an Islamic country and the Islamic world is going to resent what we're doing. And that will add to the pressures and frictions that we will face there -- on the other hand, providing us with ample reason to leave sooner and on the other hand, making a transition to a pro-Western Iraqi government more difficult and problematic.

So you don't share the president's optimism that this is going to be the first Middle Eastern country in a sort of democracy domino effect?

I think that's possible, but I wouldn't say that's the most likely outcome. The most likely outcome is a stuttering instability in the region, intensified repression by some states, marginal moderation in others, and for the region more uncertainty ... that's the most likely outcome.

Should we work to make it a better outcome than that? Absolutely. Could we do that? Perhaps we can. But the "optimistic outlook" that some people have talked about is exactly that: It is optimistic, and it's not the most likely outcome.

Of the people who are running this war, from Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld and Powell on down, in terms of the political appointees, are there are any who you particularly like who you would work with again, hypothetically, in some ...

I like all the people who are there. I've worked with them before. I was a White House Fellow in the Ford administration when Secretary Rumsfeld was White House chief of staff and later Secretary of Defense, and Dick Cheney was the deputy chief of staff at the White House and later the chief.

[Deputy Secretary of Defense] Paul Wolfowitz I've known for many, many years. [Deputy National Security Advisor] Steve Hadley at the White House is an old friend. [Under Secretary of Defense for Policy] Doug Feith I worked with very intensively during the time we negotiated the Dayton Peace Agreement; he was representing the Bosnian Muslims then, along with [Pentagon advisor] Richard Perle. So I like these people a lot. They're not strangers. They're old colleagues.

Do you disagree with them on their worldview?

I disagreed with them on some specific aspects. I would not have gone after the war on terror exactly as [they] did and I laid that out in the [new foreword to the paperback edition of "Waging Modern War"]. But I also know there's no single best plan. You have to pick a plan that might work and make it work. That means you've got to avoid the plans with the fatal flaws. This administration came into office predisposed to use American troops for war fighting and to realign American foreign policy so it focused on a more robust, more realistic view of the world than the supposedly idealistic view of the previous administration.

But the views that President Bush espoused recently at the American Enterprise Institute, if his predecessor had espoused that view he'd have been hooted off the stage, laughed at, accused of being incredibly idealistic about the hard-nosed practical politics of the Middle East. So this is an administration that's moving in a certain direction, and now that that's the direction they've picked they've got to make it work. Like everybody else, I hope they'll be successful. It's too important; we can't afford to fail.

But certainly you're contemplating running for president -- I understand you haven't made a decision -- so even though you root for their success, you can't agree with their methods.

For me it's not about candidacies, it's about ideas. A lot of people have talked to me about seeking political office. But they've done so because of the ideas I'm expressing and they're interested in the concepts of a new American strategy, a strategic dialogue with the American people, a different way of looking at the world, a different image for America in the eyes of those abroad, a different means for accomplishing and protecting our national interest than what the administration has proposed.

Well, that's what I'm asking. I'm saying --

So for me it's about following through on the dialogue, it's not about candidacy.

I understand that, I'm just pointing out that your ideas are different from the ones being acted on right now.

This is not an abstract debate. This is about the future welfare and safety of this country. I want the administration, I want them to be successful. If I didn't, I probably wouldn't be offering ideas like this. I certainly want them to succeed. Just like every American should.

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