Women vs. Wal-Mart

Her position in the case, as an older black woman with humble origins, standing up against a larger power for equal rights, makes her seem like a modern-day Rosa Parks.

You know, there is always this perception that Rosa Parks was an accidental activist, that she just was sitting on the back of that bus and finally couldn't stand it any longer. The reality was that Rosa Parks was an activist for a long time before that. She had been a part of the civil rights movement for many years. Betty Dukes is truly a kind of an accidental activist. She never thought of sex discrimination before this case. She really was surprised into taking a stand. Betty is more like the myth of Rosa Parks than the real Rosa Parks!

What kind of compensation will the 1.6 million women in this case receive?

When they say this lawsuit is on behalf of 1.6 million women, it's not that 1.6 million women know they're in the lawsuit, or are actively bringing claims. This is just the number that could potentially benefit from the suit. What each individual will collect will vary and will depend on their claim and the size of their settlement. In an ideal outcome, what everyone will get is an improved company to work at.

Is there something about the Wal-Mart culture that is particularly attractive to female employees?

Wal-Mart promises that even if you don't have a college education, you can advance. For many women with no education and little work experience outside the home, that is very appealing. The Wal-Mart promises are so compelling to people because they map so well onto the promises of American culture. People really want to believe them. Another thing that appeals to these women is that Wal-Mart also sells themselves as a family-oriented company with strong "values" -- which is often understood to mean Christian values.

Yet in the book you cite several discrepancies between the way Wal-Mart talks about family values and the way the company actually serves the families of its employees.

The way that Wal-Mart underpays women and doesn't promote them, despite the fact that so many women who work there are supporting their families, is shockingly hostile. As one of the plaintiffs pointed out, "They don't even pay you enough to pay a babysitter." In their company culture, they've always had the idea that to move into management, people have to be willing to relocate. [Uprooting the family] can be tremendously disruptive to families for either men or women. It's clearly something that can be avoided, especially now that there are so many Wal-Marts everywhere. You hardly need to be sent to another state to work at a different Wal-Mart.

What about those "Christian values"? Do they allow employees time off to practice their religion?

Many employees who wish to practice Christianity have a difficult time getting Sundays off. That is something Betty Dukes brought up. One of Wal-Mart's requirements for moving into management is being available to work at any time. Betty feels that not being available to work on Sundays has hurt her. Other employees have said the same thing. As an employee, you can get the time off usually, but there is a sense that a manager should be free to work anytime they're asked. That's also something that hurts women with children.

Has Wal-Mart ever publicly acknowledged that they discriminated against women?

Not explicitly. In some instances, they've said [in the context of the lawsuit], "We're realizing we have to make some changes. But we can't change what makes Wal-Mart, Wal-Mart!" Wal-Mart is treading a fine line because they want the public to know that they are taking the criticisms seriously and are trying to do something about them, while still fighting [the ruling] in court.

Many of the employees you spoke with expressed a belief in the "glory days" of Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton and seemed to feel that none of Wal-Mart's current labor problems would be happening if Walton were still alive. Is there any truth to this? Did things go downhill after he died in 1992?

Employees see Sam Walton as an inspiring figure because he built his empire from a five-and-dime store in Arkansas -- he really is an embodiment of the American dream. Many workers that I interviewed talked about how Sam Walton would be turning over in his grave if he could see the company now. The fact is that Sam Walton knew Wal-Wart wasn't treating women well -- he even wrote about it in his biography -- but there is very little evidence that he did anything to change it. He was very opposed to unions and always said unions had no place at Wal-Mart. Sam was also very cheap. He helped build the business model of spending as little as possible, and that included spending as little as possible on labor costs. There is every reason to believe that Wal-Mart is what it is because of the views of Sam Walton, not in spite of them.

However, some long-term employees explained to me that when Sam Walton was alive, the company had more of a family feeling. One woman in the book talks about how when he was alive, the employees' smocks said, "People make the difference" and when he died, they became, "How many I help you?" -- moving the focus from the worker to the customer. Sam Walton was also good about going into stores personally and saying, "You're doing a really great job." After he died, people were much more inclined to notice the problems in the company because working there was not as pleasant. Things like how much people were paid -- those things didn't change dramatically. But basic courtesies toward employees and things the company did to make employees feel special (like birthday cakes on their birthdays) really went by the wayside.

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