When the kids speak, you hear how the conflict really comes down to these simple core beliefs that are hard to shake. Has anyone accused you of using children to oversimplify the situation?

Goldberg: We worried people would say that. In fact, I think we have escaped criticism. There have been times, especially in Israel, when people have said, oh, you did this or that wrong. And I say look, we made this film. We hung out in these areas, we met these kids and this is what we saw. And now you're angry that we didn't make it the way you wanted us to make it.

Shapiro: You work for five years unpaid, if you want to!

Goldberg: If you want to make your own film, great. But this is just our story. People take it so seriously because of the power of film to reach mass audiences.

Shapiro: And the importance of the subject.

Goldberg: Some people are just not going to like the film. I've watched, and they sit there looking for something to dislike. And when they find it, the film's over. The criticism I've received in Israel has mostly been about a word here or there. You can see that the person watched the film for 20 minutes, heard a word they didn't like and for the rest of the movie they were formulating their attack plan on me. And I feel bad, because you could have formulated your attack plan after the film. I'm really happy to sit here and be attacked, but it's too bad you missed all these kids. Because they have, I think, a lot to teach us. So the people who criticize the film ...

Shapiro: Fuck 'em!

Goldberg: They weren't going to like it to begin with. And there were other people, Palestinians, who tell me they came looking for a fight.

Shapiro: No wait, they say, I saw the film made by Shapiro, Goldberg -- what are two Jews doing making this film?

Goldberg: This Palestinian woman who saw the film last year told me, "I came ready to tear your film apart, and I'm embarrassed that I have nothing to say. It was so moving."

You were talking after the screening the other day about trying to stay positive, in spite of all the violence on both sides that's going on right now.

Goldberg: I got dressed down at the first screening by a friend, who basically said, "We cannot afford to be realistic. We have to be optimistic." Because I said, "I'm being realistic, what do you want? I'm not optimistic right now, I'm scared, I'm in pain about it." But she sort of reminded me that I do feel, despite it all, that somehow, someway. Maybe only because it makes it easier to get up in the morning. Also, I guess I was trained to pray for peace, and to believe that peace is possible. Maybe it was an abstract idea as a kid. When I was growing up [in Israel], there was no question of what you would wish for if you saw a shooting star, or blew out your birthday candles. You wished for peace. You had no idea what it meant, but it was kind of ingrained in you. And I've grown to see that it's not all that simple. It's going to take a lot of concession, and a lot of pain, and an enormous amount of moral and spiritual courage, from both Israelis and Palestinians, in order to get to any kind of agreement that's going to be vaguely workable for both sides.

Shapiro [to Goldberg]: So, let me ask you a question. In the film, Yarko writes at the Western Wall that his wish is to win the volleyball game. Do you think that now, considering all that's going on, if Yarko was taken to the Wall, he'd write for volleyball, or for peace?

Goldberg: I think he'd write for volleyball.

Shapiro: Still?

Goldberg: His life is so enmeshed in volleyball. I also grew up in a really different time than Yarko. Now the violence is small-scale, one person, 20 people, five people, very targeted, it happens at certain flash points. I grew up in a period where 5,000 Israelis or 20,000 Egyptians would be killed. We were wishing for peace to end the wars. And in a way those wars have already ended. It's bizarre, but there's a certain kind of peace that's come to the land already, in that there is no all-out war going on in the Middle East. And it doesn't look like there's going to be one in the near future. Maybe that's a silly thing to say, because you never know what's going to happen in Iraq, what's going to happen with Iran, who the United States is going to bomb next, who's going to retaliate, if Israel's going to get involved. So I don't know. But I also didn't play volleyball.

What's next for you?

Goldberg: Sleep?

Would you like to collaborate on another project?

Shapiro: You know, in a way this job has just begun because we're learning that you have to work really hard to get people to see a documentary film. It's expensive going to the movies, a babysitter is $10 an hour. To go to a movie for two, it's like a $60 evening. So to convince people to see a documentary about the Middle East? That's kind of our job right now, to encourage people to make that choice.

A good way would be to tell people about how funny this film is.

Shapiro: You see? I agree with you, because this is what I've heard over and over again. People say, I didn't expect to find myself laughing in a film that's about the Middle East conflict. And that's just the best feeling, to hear the audience laughing. It opens them up to the crying part.

Did you expect it to be that funny?

Shapiro: B.Z. and I had a great time when we went out in 1995. It was just the two of us, doing everything on a shoestring. We had no idea of what we were getting into, and it was just such an incredibly innocent time. Every day we learned so much. And it was so complicated, and often so disheartening, that you had to deal with it with humor sometimes. The funniest people I know are people who came from really abusive families. Then when we started working with Carlos, the three of us would have to diffuse the tension with humor. And kids are funny, despite themselves. That age group, they're just weird! We were really enjoying these kids, and we wanted the audience to enjoy them as well.

That burping contest!

Shapiro: That was amazing, you know, that was one of those things where you just know there's a God. It's like, there's tape in the camera, the cameraman's not taking a cigarette break, the battery's charged, it was one of those incredible magic moments. But then, when you're shooting that much footage you sort of deserve a few magic moments.

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