Rummy's scapegoat

One of the moments in your book that I actually found the most -- I don't know, the saddest -- is when you're describing the photos that came to light, and included in your description is one photo that we've never seen. It's of a female M.P. who was leading a female prisoner and some guy -- was it other MPs or other prisoners ...

No, it was a contract interrogator or an M.P. or military interrogator.

... The guy asked the female M.P. to lift the prisoner's shirt up just as she was walking by.

Show us your breasts.

Right. And she did. How do you account for an atmosphere in which something like that would happen? That's not really the same atmosphere as the other photographs.

That is a complete violation of trust, complete.

Well why would she get to that point? Doesn't something like that emerge in a leadership vacuum?

If it's nothing else, it's an indication that there is absolutely a leadership vacuum. But when I go out and I talk to soldiers and I talk to prisoners, I have to trust what they're saying to me is the truth. And this female prisoner was there because her husband was prostituting her, and I think she was being held for her own protection, if I remember the details. So when this female M.P. befriended her, I would believe that it was really out of respect. I mean, they couldn't be friends, but she talked to her and took special time to make sure that the females [female prisoners] were OK.

But what makes a soldier violate that trust? I can't answer that question. The people who they believed were authorized to give them orders and instructions have not answered those questions either. When I was at Abu Ghraib, I would walk through the cellblocks. I would walk through the compounds outside. No M.P., no interrogator, no contractor, no prisoner was saying to me, "Please ma'am, help us." Nothing. Not a hint, not a suggestion. And I've never had an opportunity to speak to any one of those soldiers since they were removed from their positions. Not any one of them. So I can't answer the details of what they were thinking or what went through their heads or why this was allowed to happen.

Yes, they knew the rules. They can't deny that. But what the atmosphere was, I don't know.

Do you feel like Rumsfeld is at the heart of all of this and should be held completely accountable for what happened?

Yes, absolutely. And so should his sidekick, [Undersecretary of Defense Stephen] Cambone. Really, I don't have anything against Alberto Gonzales, but he was involved in the discussions about the departure from Geneva Conventions and dealing with terrorists. So why isn't he somewhat accountable? Pappas is still on active duty. Sanchez, still on active duty. Fast, promoted and still on active duty, sergeant major of the Army. How are they silencing these guys or maintaining their silence? They're under the control of Rumsfeld, under the control of the active component.

Do you think that your case is hurt by the fact that you don't really, in your book or otherwise, take on much responsibility for any role you might have had?

Well, I can tell you that I think -- I know -- that it's unfair to suggest, which they did from the beginning, that I allowed this to happen, that somehow I had knowledge and I allowed this to happen. That is untrue.

But this happened under your watch, and you haven't really come forward saying, 'I made a lot of mistakes.' I felt that the book suggests that being a scapegoat, which you unquestionably are, somehow exempts you from any responsibility at all.

From failures. No. That's a good point. Maybe I didn't do it with enough effort, but I've said in interviews and otherwise, Hold me responsible for the things I could control. And there were a lot of mistakes made in Iraq. But when you then say well, yes, we didn't do this as well as we could have, or this was a failure, I can tell you that we were so close to being in violation of the Geneva Conventions, just on the conditions for the prisoners. But then it goes to we couldn't get funding. Why? Because the funds were being looted by American contractors. People can't believe all of this. They can't get their arms around all of it. So what they were comfortable with, from the beginning, was to associate my name with those photographs forever. Because without understanding all of the details or asking about the details, people would say, "Oh, Karpinski? Yes, those photographs, Lynndie England, Karpinski, Graner, Karpinski."

Now, I'm finding that, particularly with the book tour, people are saying, "What did the soldiers say?" And when I say, "I don't know because I've never had an opportunity to speak to any one of them," it's like a light bulb goes off over their head. Oh, so they really did deny you access? Absolutely, and continued to.

And yes, we made mistakes. We didn't do everything perfectly. It was never pretty. But I'll be damned if 3,400 soldiers are going to be charged as being guilty by association with the 800th M.P. Brigade. That is unfair. And Bremer comes back, $8 billion is missing, and he just simply says it was a war, we're not always accountable.

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