"There are leftists, but there is no left"

You talk about Ralph Reed in the book -- he's your role model, right? But seriously, he goes from Christian Coalition head to take over the Georgia Republican Party and takes down Sen. Max Cleland. The Christian right has a lot of discipline that the left just seems to lack.

They've done very well. They still don't represent more than 15 to 17 percent of the voters. But because they operate intelligently, unlike the left, they have tremendous influence.

So you're supporting Howard Dean this year.

Oh yeah, I mean, I don't think he's Franklin D. Roosevelt, although Roosevelt ran as a conservative in 1932, but he's just head and shoulders above everybody else. He's the only person who can talk to an audience and sound like an honest person, and I think that's what Americans are dying for -- someone who'll listen to what they say, respond honestly and directly, and if he disagrees he'll say why. I've heard him do that -- I went to a fundraising party for him in Chicago a couple of months ago. The amazing thing about that was that I thought I'd go see a lot of my friends, and there were 500 people there and I didn't know a single person. This is a movement.

What happens to it if he doesn't get the nomination?

Who knows? But you know, it's not that kind of movement. It's not just about him. But the war is very important. He opposed the war at a time when it was very difficult to oppose the war, and now everybody's trying to half-jump on his bandwagon. And they all look like a bunch of fools by comparison.

What do you think of the Wesley Clark phenomenon?

I think it's the Clintons' attempt, and the Democratic Leadership Council's attempt, to hang onto the party. I think they're afraid of what Dean represents -- a whole new circle of people who threaten their hold on the party. Plus I actually think Clark is a terrible candidate. Everybody thinks the Democrats need a general, but by the time the election comes around in a little over a year George Bush will be paying for Iraq, and he'll be in trouble no matter who he faces.

You think that's the issue that can bring Bush down?

Well, not necessarily. The economy's in pretty bad shape, too. [Laughs)] But I think the war is an issue that's going to mobilize and energize a lot of people.

But won't it divide a lot of people? I mean, there was a big antiwar demonstration last weekend, but the call was "End the occupation now" and I can't support that -- and most Americans won't support that.

No, we can't get out now in the sense that tomorrow morning we get out. Dean isn't calling for that.

No, but some people on the left are. Kucinich is, ANSWER is. I mean, to go back to your book, to the extent the war poses an opportunity for the left, it poses a huge danger, too.

If there were a left, which there isn't. There is no left.

Come on, there's a left.

No, there are leftists, there are little groups of leftists. But there's no left in the sense that there's any coherence or commonality ...

Well, the people with the biggest mouths get defined as the left.

Yes, and look, the "Get out now!" faction isn't necessarily bad, as long as it's in the background. It's sort of how I feel about Kucinich -- I'm glad he's there, he energizes people who aren't energized, and he provides a buffer for Democrats who know they can't slide too far to the right, they can't ignore the left.

Maybe I'm not as sanguine as you. I think the "Get out now," ANSWER people wind up getting defined as "the left" -- and the rest of us get smeared. When in fact there are really two lefts in this country. One is the optimistic one, which believes that its principles are in accordance with American democracy, that we're just trying to make America live up to its own principles. And the other is a deeply negative and pessimistic left, which really does seem to hate this country and thinks everything it stands for is wrong, that it's just a failed enterprise. That's the ANSWER faction, and it bothers me.

Well, it's really a holdover from the whole Soviet period. But it's fading.

I hope so. But then, you've always been an optimist. What makes you optimistic lately?

I was just reading an obituary for Edward Said in the London Review of Books, and it talked about how he was always optimistic, but realistic, and it quoted [the Italian Marxist philosopher Antonio] Gramsci, you know, about needing a "pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the will." I mean, look at what we had in this country in the 1950s, and look at what we have now. Look at the status of women, blacks, gays. And we achieved this in decades when, except for the period of the New Left in the '60s, the nation was mostly controlled by conservatives. You hear people in different movements saying how bad things are, "We haven't won anything," but that's crazy. Look at gays -- look at television, where you have shows like "Will and Grace," or the gay guys who make over the straight guys. Come on, look, it's a different world, it's a better world, despite the fact that the Christian right is built on opposition to this stuff. So that's what makes me an optimist. It's a different country, and a much better country. I'm not a historical determinist, but on the other hand, the older I get, I'm close to it.

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