Six days that shook the world

This is the main fault of the book.

Why didn't you get more Palestinian voices?

I wanted to get more Palestinian voices. I couldn't because of the intifada. A couple of times I risked myself to try to get Palestinian voices, but frankly the Palestinian voices that I got were off the wall. I felt very strongly about the Palestinian voices. I wanted to interview refugees. I went to meet some Palestinians one night, very late, and they started telling me: "The Israelis never took Jerusalem in 1967; they hired mercenaries from Britain and France. We saw them, we talked to them, they weren't Jewish at all. And don't you know, the Israelis aren't even Jewish. They're just refugees from Poland." I came home so distraught from this interview, not only because I had risked my life to do it but because it was completely worthless. And these were intelligent people. It was very upsetting. So I tried. You're the first person to note that, by the way. I was hoping I'd get away with it.

Do you think that the Arab states cared about the Palestinians in 1967?

I don't think they care that much about them today.

Well, that's the next question.

Kuwait kicked out 400,000 of them. [After the PLO declared its support for Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait.] They don't care about them; they're afraid of them. They're afraid of them because the Palestinian issue threatens these monolithic regimes. It's like the brick that comes out and the whole thing falls down. That's the only reason they care about them. I have Jordanian friends who call me up and say, "Kill him. Why don't you kill him?" Meaning Arafat. The Jordanians hate Arafat far more than we do.

Eshkol refers to this Israeli inner conflict: He's convinced that Israel has the power to dominate these Arab states, but he's also just as fearful of the complete eradication of Israel. It seems as though those two feelings are at work a lot for Israelis.

Eshkol had a term for it: "Samson the Nerd." On the one hand, we're Samson; we can do everything. On the other hand, we're about to be destroyed. And those two [feelings] have characterized Israel's worldview since the day it was born. The same thing today. By the way, they're both right. Israel can do amazing things militarily, but it can be destroyed.

Do you think that after they conquered the West Bank, the Israeli leaders became enamored with their newfound power?

That's my next book. I didn't go into 1968, 1969 and 1970. To my surprise, in the aftermath of the war, I found the arrogance and the self-congratulation, but I also found tremendous introspection and feelings of guilt and sadness. Even the Western diplomats who were observing Israel at the time thought it was weird. There's a quote from Michael Hadow [the British ambassador to Israel], who was no great friend to Israel, who said how very strange it was that a country goes to war, wins a huge victory, and everyone goes back to work. Even Israelis forget that. They tend to remember the arrogance but only because we paid so heavily for that arrogance in 1973.

Do you think that the victory of 1967 led to a transformation of Israel's image in the eyes of the world ?

It went from David to Goliath.

Right. Do you think that makes it all the more difficult for Israelis to let go of the West Bank and go back to pre-1967 borders?

Good question. Let me think about that. Because remember, there's a whole generation of Israelis who don't remember 1967. Israelis in terms of their national history might be just a little bit better than Americans.

But, no, I don't think so. There's one exception and that is the religious camp. Certain religious Jews, nationalist religious Jews -- interestingly enough like a lot of evangelical Christians in this country -- assign messianic ramifications to the Six-Day War. They view it as a steppingstone to the age of redemption. God intervened. They're the exception. For example, today is Jerusalem Day, where mostly the religious Jews march to Jerusalem and celebrate the liberation of the Old City. That, for them, is a religious event.

In the book, there's a comment made by Abba Eban, Israel's foreign minister at the time, that there was no turning back the clock after this war. Do many Israelis feel that way?

He meant that there's no turning back the clock now; if you want the land back, you have to make peace. In 1967, that was a radical notion. Today, we assume land for peace even though Resolution 242 doesn't say that.

What does it say?

It says "land" without the "the," for the recognition that every state in the Middle East has the right to live with peace within recognized and defensible borders. It never says that the Arabs have to make peace with Israel. Which is why the Saudi peace plan is a very significant move. It's the first time the Saudis not only say they're going to make peace but that they're going to normalize, which really isn't in 242.

Do you think that the Saudis are sincere?

That is a different question than whether or not I think the Saudi peace plan is interesting. I think the Saudis are scared shitless. Fourteen Saudis killed 3,000 Americans. I'd be scared.

Do you think Sharon has a peace plan?

I think Sharon has an interim plan, which again, Joe Israeli would say is probably the best thing to do now. Because if you're going to impose a state on the situation, it's going to be awful. It will implode.

Some people on the left fear that this is getting driven toward the type of situation where the only option is for the Palestinians to be pushed out. Do you think that's possible?

Only within a huge war. Where cities are wasted.

Did Sept. 11 reinforce for Israelis that the Arab world is a real threat to their existence?

Yes. There is an element that Israel is an outpost of the West. You ever been there?

No, I haven't.

It looks like New Jersey. Israel is very American and looks American. Our press is very American. Our system of government in its ethos is very American. People look kind of American. And it is in sharp contrast to what's around it. So it's easy to see ourselves as an outpost of the West, embattled by this hostile civilization.

Next Page: Is Arafat a real partner for peace?

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