I want to ask you what pieces of legislation you think he got passed to help the black community, but I'm also curious: How important is style? What impact does that make and does that mean more than a politician's legislative record in some ways?

They're both very important. In some ways the legislation is far more important to those who are close to the process. The vast majority of African-Americans aren't close to the process, have little if any knowledge about the legislative process or which legislation is in the hopper. But what they get on TV, whether it's about Bill Clinton or any other president, is a lot more style than substance. We see presidents walking across the lawn outside the West Wing with a head of state, or making a brief statement. Or they give a State of the Union speech that's 45 minutes long and covers 25 or 30 issues -- they're only giving a fleeting notice to any of them -- and all you get is style. That's what you measure. When you measure that, you come to some estimation of who this person is.

I don't think that he was without substance. When you look at the lengths to which he went to put African-Americans in significant positions of authority ... those who understand the legislative process know that billions and billions of dollars flowed through the controlling hands of these appointees. It would literally take a political anthropologist, if there is such a creature, to figure out the real impact of the flow of that money.

For example, Ron Brown, the secretary of commerce, redefined his role -- something he called "commercial diplomacy." He really wanted to be secretary of state so he found some way to merge the two. This whole thing about commercial diplomacy allowed him to go to Africa and to talk, not only about commerce, but also about politics and how the United States government could help reshape the political map of Africa.

Was it he who encouraged Clinton to make his trip to Africa? That seemed to mean a lot to a lot of people.

I'm not sure; he'd died by that time. Clinton says that he had, from very early on in his administration, wanted to make the trip.

No other president made a trip like that before?

There was a brief stop made by Jimmy Carter, but there was no official visit made by a president.

We ran a story last February by Jabari Asim called "Bill Clinton Isn't Black!" So I found a critic. And he asked questions like, "What have black men to gain by attaching our loyalty so firmly to a man whose place in history grows shakier by the minute?" How do you respond to that?

That's the snapshot approach. We live in a very imperfect world, and as we look at the world in which we live and the history of the country in which we live, you have to measure Bill Clinton not against your greatest goals, but against the reality of what has taken place before and what takes place now. If your greatest goals and expectations are not realized, and they never are, what you have to then come to some understanding of is, "Who has come closer to helping you realize these goals among those who have been occupants of the Oval Office?" Bill Clinton is on the shortlist.

Historians might say that LBJ was more important for the black community. Would you say that's accurate?

I would say that what is accurate about LBJ is that LBJ is unsurpassed in the efforts that he made to enact laws that uplifted African-Americans.

But he won't be remembered nearly the same way?

No, listen, LBJ fondled dogs. He picked them up by their ears -- remember that famous incident? You're probably too young to remember that, but he was roundly criticized by the people who belonged to animal protection leagues. He was photographed picking up his dog by the ears and kissing it and everybody screamed. LBJ, for all that he did for African-Americans, is better known for telling crude racial jokes than he is for having close and intimate relations with black people.

We give a lot of credit to people who show up and stand with us, who come into our community, who come into our homes. That's real important to us and I'm not sure that we're unlike any other race of people in that regard. Clinton showed up early and often, and did things that were quite unusual, like getting in his limousine and driving across town to have soul food dinner, eating chitlins with black folk.

It's interesting because Mayor Mike Bloomberg has made initial overtures to black leaders here in New York. The press notes how different he is from Giuliani, and you realize that the difference sometimes is that Bloomberg returns phone calls and writes notes. And it seems that Clinton was diligent about the small things like that, too.

If you take it out of the context of race, there have been successful white, maybe Irish, politicians who ingratiated themselves with, say, the Jewish community. They would put a yarmulke on and go to the synagogue or sit shiva. They did it and understood the culture of the religion and they reaped great political benefit from that. Now, people will say they were just doing it to get the votes. Maybe so! But they did it and they did it well. People want leaders to demonstrate some knowledge and understanding of who their constituents are.

Do black people feel stronger about him than, say, Colin Powell or Jesse Jackson?

You're measuring on different scales. African-Americans are very proud of Colin Powell, proud of his accomplishments, proud of the fact that he, unlike many other black Republicans, did not renounce affirmative action but rejoices and celebrates affirmative action and how it's benefited his life and the lives of others. But they don't see him as someone who is on the right political track. Bill Clinton is someone who is cut out of the Democratic mold. Since 1936, a majority of African-Americans have voted for Democratic presidential candidates in increasing numbers. We believe that our political fate rests most comfortably in the hands of Democrats. Yes, we also hold Clinton in higher esteem than we do Jesse Jackson, which is kind of fascinating.

The end of Clinton's term was a whirlwind, and a mess. He really seemed to be doing some shady stuff with all those pardons. Then, he moved to Harlem. How did the end of his presidency affect the level of support for him in the black community, if at all?

[The pardons] certainly were portrayed to be quite offensive. But I'm old enough to remember that one of the first things George Bush I did was pardon all of the people involved in the Iran-Contra affair, including people who could have implicated him in his role as vice president. I don't think that concerned the rank and file within the Republican Party. The pardons that Clinton got the most attention for in the black community had to do with African-Americans, including Kemba Smith [a young black woman sentenced to 24 years in prison without possibility of parole for her role in her boyfriend's drug ring]. While most people in the media were focused on his pardoning some rather notorious white folk, the black community was applauding his pardon of Kemba Smith. Again, we separated it out and looked at it from our perspective.

The move to Harlem, again, was something people might have thought he was doing for attention, or that somehow it wasn't sincere.

It's amazing: It's never sincere when he does something for us. Did George Bush say to Enron, "Aw, come on up to the White House for as many meetings as you want," because he wasn't sincere? You know what they say? He was only concerned about energy policy, no politics involved there. But Bill Clinton moves to Harlem and he's "not sincere" and, in fact, it wasn't even his first choice! Are you married?

No.

You have any friends who are married?

Yes.

Did they marry their first choice? Most people don't. Some of the best choices in life are second choices.

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